Identity Crisis

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Post by Ashraf Peeran on Thu Jan 26, 2012 4:05 am

After the United game I saw a few people posting and saying that as fans we have to lower our ambitions as we're no longer a 'guaranteed top 4' club, but are now a 4-6th place club. We don't have the same financial resources as the current top 4 and even Liverpool, and therefore its unreasonable to expect us to achieve champions league football every year let alone challenge for the title.

Then there are those who, in response to the above opinion, say that instead of remaining stagnant we should be willing to change and adapt as a club. Take risks by spending big on players, even if it means not having the perfect financial model. We must do whatever it takes to remain competitive, and to just accept that we don't have the same resources as other club's and so cannot keep pace with them is a loser's mentality. We have to show some kind of ambition. And currently, with the way the club is set up, we're not showing any ambition and are accepting defeat.

So my question to you is are we (should we be) a club which can no longer compete at the highest level, but one that prides itself on a self sustaining financial model, or are we a club which is not willing to adapt to the changing climate of the premier league and should do show ambition by doing what it takes to take us forward.
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Post by Sami Rockfeller on Thu Jan 26, 2012 4:21 am

Firstly, whoever said we don't have the necessary resources to be a top club? We are financially quite adept despite what the media is having you believe. We might not be Man City but we are quite rich.
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Post by Michael Foster on Thu Jan 26, 2012 4:56 am

I think one prob is we have to look at the bigger picture...and this is prob a good 10-20 years picture...

We by moving have in a way condemned the way of not being able to spend what we would all call 'big',
the club moved for the financial gain of a long term investment and stability to also push the club into the quick buck Chelsea,city etc bracket...not that we are trying to turn for a quick buck.
But we are doing it the right way to compete with the others financial resources,
We are in a much,much,much better position then any other bar city,but even still if Mr sheak decides to do one it leaves city in a whole lot of mess...but as I said a much better position...and have arguably the best manager available to do the job of keeping us high as pos up the table on as little resources as possible...
In the long rung man u will have major problems if city start to win the league on a regular basis,on anything else for that matter..united carry a serious amount of debt and have a manager that has depleted a good chunk of the resources united had..for what? Ok they have won a good chunk of titles and cups..but apart for the last 6 year's so have we...
But once united amd fergie part company...what happens..do they get in a new manager and give him 100m to spend..no..they won't have a 100m nor likely 50m...
Where as we will sail on peacefully...
knowing no debt...no problem
As a club we sit in a time where we want to win...Christ who don't?!
But where we sit is sound,I want us to win and end this 6 year's of trophy less times...just to have something to shout about again...teams pass through stages where they hit a Barron patch,it happens...
but when did the last team that you know of hit a patch and have the team,manager,New stadium,and almost debt free,qualify for the champions league almost as regular as the sun sets as we do....I know of no other...
Good time are ahead...might not be so soon but they are coming...
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Post by Christopher Flanagan on Thu Jan 26, 2012 6:31 am

To answer this requires far too much speculation on things we have no idea about.

But in essence: would I like to see us buy a better calibre of player? Yes. Would I like us to take financial risks that mean we put the club itself at risk? No. Which of those is more important? The latter, clearly.

But that inplies there is no balance to be met in the middle, which surely there is. What that balance is none of us are privy to.
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Post by Michael Foster on Thu Jan 26, 2012 7:19 am

Christopher Flanagan wrote:To answer this requires far too much speculation on things we have no idea about.

But in essence: would I like to see us buy a better calibre of player? Yes. Would I like us to take financial risks that mean we put the club itself at risk? No. Which of those is more important? The latter, clearly.

But that inplies there is no balance to be met in the middle, which surely there is. What that balance is none of us are privy to.

This is very true Chris....what is your honest opinion to why we don't sign a caliber of player we all would like...
To keep it short a friend of mine had a very good point a few weeks ago that Wenger does not seam to get on well with those of an attitude or loud nature and that a special player carries a somewhat amount of swagger..
In one way I see what the guy is saying...
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Post by Christopher Flanagan on Thu Jan 26, 2012 10:46 am

My honest opinion is that I'm not in a position to know and don't pretend to be. If I were to speculate, and why not, I'd say that there is trouble and probable wholesale change at board level, which will probably occur after the share lockdown ends and the club are refusing to commit resources until that point.

As for whether he can handle egos and awkward players... You remember what RVP was like when he first arrived, right? I think ironing the crazy out players in one of the things he is better at.
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Post by Ashraf Peeran on Thu Jan 26, 2012 3:00 pm

Sami Rockfeller wrote:Firstly, whoever said we don't have the necessary resources to be a top club? We are financially quite adept despite what the media is having you believe. We might not be Man City but we are quite rich.

Compared to the league, yes, we are a rich club. But compared to the clubs that are challenging for the same positions, we do not have the same spending power as them (City, United, Chelsea, Spurs and Liverpool). Their financial models might not be as stable as ours, but the fact of the matter is that they have the ability to spend and we don't. Unless of course you believe that we have a 50mil pound war chest hidden away somewhere and Wenger just refuses to spend any of it. Remember, it's not just the price of the player, it's the wages that limit us as well.
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Post by Hisham El Mawan on Thu Jan 26, 2012 6:03 pm

Michael Foster wrote:I think one prob is we have to look at the bigger picture...and this is prob a good 10-20 years picture...

We by moving have in a way condemned the way of not being able to spend what we would all call 'big',
the club moved for the financial gain of a long term investment and stability to also push the club into the quick buck Chelsea,city etc bracket...not that we are trying to turn for a quick buck.
But we are doing it the right way to compete with the others financial resources,
We are in a much,much,much better position then any other bar city,but even still if Mr sheak decides to do one it leaves city in a whole lot of mess...but as I said a much better position...and have arguably the best manager available to do the job of keeping us high as pos up the table on as little resources as possible...
In the long rung man u will have major problems if city start to win the league on a regular basis,on anything else for that matter..united carry a serious amount of debt and have a manager that has depleted a good chunk of the resources united had..for what? Ok they have won a good chunk of titles and cups..but apart for the last 6 year's so have we...
But once united amd fergie part company...what happens..do they get in a new manager and give him 100m to spend..no..they won't have a 100m nor likely 50m...
Where as we will sail on peacefully...
knowing no debt...no problem
As a club we sit in a time where we want to win...Christ who don't?!
But where we sit is sound,I want us to win and end this 6 year's of trophy less times...just to have something to shout about again...teams pass through stages where they hit a Barron patch,it happens...
but when did the last team that you know of hit a patch and have the team,manager,New stadium,and almost debt free,qualify for the champions league almost as regular as the sun sets as we do....I know of no other...
Good time are ahead...might not be so soon but they are coming...

One of the smartest posts I've read so far on this discussion board. Many of us are becoming too concerned with the teams around us, such as City, United, Chelsea, Liverpool, even Tottenham. Few seem to realize that we don't run on the same system as those teams. We don't have a sugar daddy with unlimited funds, nor are we simply spending money even if we're in the red. Yes, these teams (probably just the first three) will probably be winning the domestic titles for the next few years to come. However, Wenger is thinking long-term. Soon enough, our pockets will be just as deep as those of our rivals, if not deeper, for a financial collapse is quite foreseeable for some of these teams. As fans, we have to stop moaning and looking for instant gratification. Instead, we must wait and see if Wenger's system brings us long-term success. And I think it can and will, if it isn't interfered with. Patience is a virtue that is rewarded, my fellow Gooners.

farao

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Post by Michael Foster on Thu Jan 26, 2012 10:56 pm

Christopher Flanagan wrote:My honest opinion is that I'm not in a position to know and don't pretend to be. If I were to speculate, and why not, I'd say that there is trouble and probable wholesale change at board level, which will probably occur after the share lockdown ends and the club are refusing to commit resources until that point.

As for whether he can handle egos and awkward players... You remember what RVP was like when he first arrived, right? I think ironing the crazy out players in one of the things he is better at.

Hmmm interesting point...a board change has been on the cards for sometime now...

As for RVP oh I remember what he was like and nearly got the boot according to the press....but it would have appeared to have been the only one stuck by...ade and co all gone...
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Post by Michael Foster on Thu Jan 26, 2012 11:11 pm

Hisham El Mawan wrote:
Michael Foster wrote:I think one prob is we have to look at the bigger picture...and this is prob a good 10-20 years picture...

We by moving have in a way condemned the way of not being able to spend what we would all call 'big',
the club moved for the financial gain of a long term investment and stability to also push the club into the quick buck Chelsea,city etc bracket...not that we are trying to turn for a quick buck.
But we are doing it the right way to compete with the others financial resources,
We are in a much,much,much better position then any other bar city,but even still if Mr sheak decides to do one it leaves city in a whole lot of mess...but as I said a much better position...and have arguably the best manager available to do the job of keeping us high as pos up the table on as little resources as possible...
In the long rung man u will have major problems if city start to win the league on a regular basis,on anything else for that matter..united carry a serious amount of debt and have a manager that has depleted a good chunk of the resources united had..for what? Ok they have won a good chunk of titles and cups..but apart for the last 6 year's so have we...
But once united amd fergie part company...what happens..do they get in a new manager and give him 100m to spend..no..they won't have a 100m nor likely 50m...
Where as we will sail on peacefully...
knowing no debt...no problem
As a club we sit in a time where we want to win...Christ who don't?!
But where we sit is sound,I want us to win and end this 6 year's of trophy less times...just to have something to shout about again...teams pass through stages where they hit a Barron patch,it happens...
but when did the last team that you know of hit a patch and have the team,manager,New stadium,and almost debt free,qualify for the champions league almost as regular as the sun sets as we do....I know of no other...
Good time are ahead...might not be so soon but they are coming...

One of the smartest posts I've read so far on this discussion board. Many of us are becoming too concerned with the teams around us, such as City, United, Chelsea, Liverpool, even Tottenham. Few seem to realize that we don't run on the same system as those teams. We don't have a sugar daddy with unlimited funds, nor are we simply spending money even if we're in the red. Yes, these teams (probably just the first three) will probably be winning the domestic titles for the next few years to come. However, Wenger is thinking long-term. Soon enough, our pockets will be just as deep as those of our rivals, if not deeper, for a financial collapse is quite foreseeable for some of these teams. As fans, we have to stop moaning and looking for instant gratification. Instead, we must wait and see if Wenger's system brings us long-term success. And I think it can and will, if it isn't interfered with. Patience is a virtue that is rewarded, my fellow Gooners.

farao

Firstly...thanks....
I looked at this idea when Wenger was going to implement it and thought he would if done right pull this off and that's not knowing him personaly or anything like that it was simply that somebody has finally come along in the sport at a time where funds were being spent like there is no tomorrow and sat down and said 'it's not happening to my club' now granted we have have had some awfull later seasons but just like my point about fergie on the top 5 managers board a degree of luck has been that Wenger took charge of a good core of a team with some exceptional players at the club we had a few quid to spend and brought some quality in hence we were winning for a time...
Now those winning ways are gathering a little dust but to be honest if it takes a few more years then Wenger pulls off his plan..I for one will enjoy watching the dust fly off the trophy cabinet...
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