Arsene Wenger

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Re: Arsene Wenger

Post by Zaid Derweesh on Tue Jan 31, 2012 1:46 am

According to Wiki, Lennon has 20 league goals and 36 assists in 180 league matches. Meanwhile, Theo has 21 goals and 26 assists in 125 league appearances (according to Wiki) for Arsenal.

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Re: Arsene Wenger

Post by Zaid Derweesh on Tue Jan 31, 2012 1:48 am

Also on Theo:

http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/standard-sport/football/article-24032068-their-walcott-i-know-my-displays-havent-been-good-enough.do

I think Theo's workrate generally has been fine, its hard to put a finger on why he's been a bit rubbish lately.

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Re: Arsene Wenger

Post by Christopher Flanagan on Tue Jan 31, 2012 2:11 am

Sturridge might well be Chelsea's leading goalscorer; I'd imagine Walcott has our second most amount of goals. I was simply thinking in terms of the overall consistency of their play. As you say, there are probably better examples but the point remains that a bizarrely high standard is expected of Theo that isn't bestowed upon similar players at clubs of similar stature.

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Re: Arsene Wenger

Post by Vijay Saibola on Thu Feb 02, 2012 9:22 am

Probably it was the fact that we had Fabregas in the team that I still believed in Wenger until last summer.

Wenger is done with Arsenal. He has given everything possible and will not bring the club forward. Let him go back to his Paris.

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Re: Arsene Wenger

Post by Chris Chan on Thu Feb 02, 2012 10:29 am

Christopher Flanagan wrote:Sturridge might well be Chelsea's leading goalscorer; I'd imagine Walcott has our second most amount of goals. I was simply thinking in terms of the overall consistency of their play. As you say, there are probably better examples but the point remains that a bizarrely high standard is expected of Theo that isn't bestowed upon similar players at clubs of similar stature.

Yes he may have our 2nd most number of goals, but when that number is 6, that just isnt good enough (along with many other players). That is like saying he is the least shit of a bad bunch

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Re: Arsene Wenger

Post by Zaid Derweesh on Thu Feb 02, 2012 10:41 am

Ok so my official stand is that if Wenger finishes top 4 he stays, but if he doesn't then he's out. It's fair, he always says judge him in May. So he'll be judged in May.

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Re: Arsene Wenger

Post by Michael Foster on Thu Feb 02, 2012 10:43 am

My guess is he is gone......

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Re: Arsene Wenger

Post by Chris Chan on Thu Feb 02, 2012 10:44 am

This team isn't good enough to finish top 4

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Re: Arsene Wenger

Post by Michael Foster on Thu Feb 02, 2012 10:51 am

Chris Chan wrote:This team isn't good enough to finish top 4

I said it the other day....

I hope the team and Wenger wake up tomorrow and take a good hard look at that fucking league table...

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Re: Arsene Wenger

Post by ralph avedikian on Thu Feb 02, 2012 10:54 am

Everyone says fire Wenger.. but who do we replace him with??? Who can do what he has done with no budget ?? And who says that Guardiola would come to us if we dont finish top 4 ?

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Re: Arsene Wenger

Post by Zaid Derweesh on Thu Feb 02, 2012 11:10 am

I'm sure a lot of managers could take us to 7th place with the squad we have. And who are we to believe about the budget? We're always told the money is there.

There is a real chance we don't even finish in the top 5. That's shameful.

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Re: Arsene Wenger

Post by John Foxall on Thu Feb 02, 2012 11:28 am

Watching the mess out there tonight, it just seems inconceivable that we could muddle our way into 4th by the end of the season with this squad. If it's not working (or as seems more likely, we've become too easy to play against as time has gone on this season), a manager has to be willing and active in changing the team/trying different things. Never mind the benefits of a settled team, this one is stale as anything.

My few comments on this match would be:

The beauty and the beast: Van Persie's individual genius followed by Theo's shank in the second half.

While won't play/can't play (Arshavin, Walcott) are in the team, I will never criticize Aaron Ramsey. I agree that he isn't able to play in the 'Cesc' role but that's hardly his fault. When he first came into the team he was playing as part of the two behind Cesc. He could be very solid in that position, making runs forward as appropriate, but he's looked lost for weeks in that position. I thought after the last two games that he would be relieved and the much improved Rosicky would get his turn in the role that he used to play for Dortmund and the Czech Republic to a high level. But no, on the bench and his subbing on was at least 20 minutes too late on the 80th minute.

Admirable effort by Oxlade-Chamberlain but lack of an overlapping full-back minimized the work we could do down that channel. Vermaelen is pretty solid at full-back but we lack a mobile player down that left side to make the most of Oxlade-Chamberlain's trickery - think Nani and Evra at United.

For a big guy, Mertesacker is so frustrating. That chance for N'Gog came from him sitting under a clearance for seconds before getting virtually no purchase on the header. Of course we knew that he was no Vidic/Lucio, but all the same, if he could put some energy into those headers when a genuine clearance was needed, that would be lovely. Of course he is also vulnerable in one on one situations but hey, why do we think no-one bought him until now. He is best used in a parked bus, as witnessed in the world cup. The idea that Koscielny could be benched once everyone is fit is a joke - our most mobile defender and at least he got the idea, the ball has to be brought forward to commit opposite players.

Which leads onto Arteta. We're so predictable with him on the ball. He's the only player that the opposition put no pressure on. He makes little effort to bring it forward himself so our midfield/attack are so split.

In the recent string of matches, the opposition's tactics have on each case seemed to work so well that it can only reinforce the limitations of this side at present. I just hope we try something different. Despite the '4-4-2 is dead brigade', I could think of worse things than trying that.

At least we didn't lose, we very well could have.

All good things come to an end, we might yet rally this season, but this club desperately needs a change. I'd be very happy for Arsene to finally have a go at another club/Real/French national team. Even he could do with something else.

Can't bare the thought of RvP rocking up somewhere else. He is so slick, yet we're seeing so little of him at the moment in our present form.

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Re: Arsene Wenger

Post by John Foxall on Thu Feb 02, 2012 11:34 am

Zaid Derweesh wrote:I'm sure a lot of managers could take us to 7th place with the squad we have. And who are we to believe about the budget? We're always told the money is there.

There is a real chance we don't even finish in the top 5. That's shameful.

Money money money. What happened to the very effective policy of buying players from rich, big clubs on the continent that have more money than sense and recrute far more players than they need? Arsenal could not have competed for Henry, Vieira and Bergkamp directly from their first clubs but signing them second-hand sure worked out well. Every year players leave these sorts of clubs, and although not all of them will turn out to be wonderful, some would make good signings and not too expensive either, these sides are desperate to get rid of the wages.

I don't think he's an amazing player but van der Vaart has been very effective for Spurs. He was bought at the Real Madrid car boot sale. With the passing of time, Arsene no longer seems interested in this sort of deal, yet without it would he have had such success in the first place?

I'm all for grand designs, youth products, realism and a idealistic playing style, but we're not Ajax or Porto. We don't have to limit ourselves, yet we do.

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Re: Arsene Wenger

Post by nick koupparis on Thu Feb 02, 2012 11:43 am

Well, we were told we were no longer a big club ...

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Re: Arsene Wenger

Post by Evan Mullins on Thu Feb 02, 2012 1:46 pm

I really do feel sorry for the supporters. As an American all I can do to support the team is to buy a kit every other year, but the supportors that go away and have to watch the sort of effort that was put in at Bolton have my utmost sympathy. It takes time, money and an emotional investment to support a team and when they dissapoint you like they have for the last month or so its just sapping of energy. Hats off to the away support especially.

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Re: Arsene Wenger

Post by Alejandro Perreira on Thu Feb 02, 2012 4:48 pm

somebody tell wenger that he's supposed to score those shots that hit the post today and that if he keeps missing them his ass is grass!

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Re: Arsene Wenger

Post by Sami Rockfeller on Thu Feb 02, 2012 7:51 pm

ralph avedikian wrote:Everyone says fire Wenger.. but who do we replace him with??? Who can do what he has done with no budget ?? And who says that Guardiola would come to us if we dont finish top 4 ?

We don't need a manager with a huge repute to turn things around. Wenger was virtually an unknown when he came to us, I'm sure we can hire someone less famous with the same drive as that of the earlier Wenger.

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Re: Arsene Wenger

Post by Jonathan Prendergast on Thu Feb 02, 2012 8:24 pm

Evan Mullins wrote:I really do feel sorry for the supporters. As an American all I can do to support the team is to buy a kit every other year, but the supportors that go away and have to watch the sort of effort that was put in at Bolton have my utmost sympathy. It takes time, money and an emotional investment to support a team and when they dissapoint you like they have for the last month or so its just sapping of energy. Hats off to the away support especially.

Whilst I agree somewhat, what about Bolton, Everton, Newcastle or even Liverpool fans.

Of the supporters that attend the games, you could categorise them as Post Wenger and Pre Wenger. The post Wenger are used to success and sublime football, and not what we have now. Depending on how far back pre-wenger, there were some high times and some times much lower than now. I remember making a bet with a Chelsea fan in 1995 about who would finish higher. I lost with Arsenal 10th and Chelsea 9th.

Whilst I will always support those that spend their hard earned and go to the games, to put it in perspective, it is much better than most other clubs, and supporters should be ready for lows as well as highs.

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Re: Arsene Wenger

Post by Jonathan Prendergast on Thu Feb 02, 2012 8:27 pm

John Foxall wrote:
Zaid Derweesh wrote:I'm sure a lot of managers could take us to 7th place with the squad we have. And who are we to believe about the budget? We're always told the money is there.

There is a real chance we don't even finish in the top 5. That's shameful.

Money money money. What happened to the very effective policy of buying players from rich, big clubs on the continent that have more money than sense and recrute far more players than they need? Arsenal could not have competed for Henry, Vieira and Bergkamp directly from their first clubs but signing them second-hand sure worked out well. Every year players leave these sorts of clubs, and although not all of them will turn out to be wonderful, some would make good signings and not too expensive either, these sides are desperate to get rid of the wages.

I don't think he's an amazing player but van der Vaart has been very effective for Spurs. He was bought at the Real Madrid car boot sale. With the passing of time, Arsene no longer seems interested in this sort of deal, yet without it would he have had such success in the first place?

I'm all for grand designs, youth products, realism and a idealistic playing style, but we're not Ajax or Porto. We don't have to limit ourselves, yet we do.

It's an interesting point. Henry for 10m, Viera for 4. Bergkamp was signed pre-wenger.

I think Wenger may have signed VDV if we didn't have Fabregas and Nasri.

I think part of the reason is that Wenger has concentrated more on English players in recent years because of the criticism he received.

I think it's a funny point in a way that our best recent player is Fabregas.

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Re: Arsene Wenger

Post by John Foxall on Fri Feb 03, 2012 2:58 am

Jonathan Prendergast wrote:
John Foxall wrote:
Zaid Derweesh wrote:I'm sure a lot of managers could take us to 7th place with the squad we have. And who are we to believe about the budget? We're always told the money is there.

There is a real chance we don't even finish in the top 5. That's shameful.

Money money money. What happened to the very effective policy of buying players from rich, big clubs on the continent that have more money than sense and recrute far more players than they need? Arsenal could not have competed for Henry, Vieira and Bergkamp directly from their first clubs but signing them second-hand sure worked out well. Every year players leave these sorts of clubs, and although not all of them will turn out to be wonderful, some would make good signings and not too expensive either, these sides are desperate to get rid of the wages.

I don't think he's an amazing player but van der Vaart has been very effective for Spurs. He was bought at the Real Madrid car boot sale. With the passing of time, Arsene no longer seems interested in this sort of deal, yet without it would he have had such success in the first place?

I'm all for grand designs, youth products, realism and a idealistic playing style, but we're not Ajax or Porto. We don't have to limit ourselves, yet we do.

It's an interesting point. Henry for 10m, Viera for 4. Bergkamp was signed pre-wenger.

I think Wenger may have signed VDV if we didn't have Fabregas and Nasri.

I think part of the reason is that Wenger has concentrated more on English players in recent years because of the criticism he received.

I think it's a funny point in a way that our best recent player is Fabregas.

I know Bergkamp was signed before Wenger, that's besides the point imo. We were obviously not in the market for him when he left Ajax, but second-hand we showed real ambition to sign him. From what I've read, that ambition came from the members of the board. Just like I'm sure it did for a cheeky but hugely significant signing like Sol Campbell.

Showing ambition has never been Arsene Wenger's thing. This is why checks and balances exist in politics, and why the counter-balance to Wenger's grand and crazy designs is needed more and more now than ever. Unfortunately it's probably too late now to avoid a low point. The question is whether we then spend a few years in the wilderness like Liverpool (depends what happens to them this season too of course) or whether we come straight back.

When Wenger leaves though, what is actually left of Arsenal? Peter Hill-Wood? Pfff..... Certainly the Americans in the club have nothing to do with its history and tradition. I honestly wonder who is left to represent the identity of this club in the near future.

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Re: Arsene Wenger

Post by Pat McMenimen on Fri Feb 03, 2012 3:54 am

Apparently Winterburn said on Football Today that he knows for a fact Arsenal don't have the money fans think they have.

My opinion is if the board were saying here Arsene here is 40mil to spend, and time after time he didn't, he wouldn't be here right now.


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Re: Arsene Wenger

Post by danny.ceurvels on Fri Feb 03, 2012 7:47 am

I started supporting Arsenal during the last few years of the Graham era and from that moment The Arsenal have been my passion. The Wenger era started off with a bang and I don't think I appreciated just how good those early teams were until the last few seasons. I have been behind Wenger and my love for Arsenal is still great, but I have found it hard to accept the way things have turned out for this club. Before you all go calling me a plastic fan....please hear me out.

In business terms, the move to the Emirates was needed. We were a winning side, one of the greatest, yet we just could not offer those type of wages other clubs with bigger stadiums could. The stadium was funded without Russian/Arab billions so we have have had to go down a different path of developing players in order to be self sufficient whilst paying off these debts, which i agree is the complete correct path to take. Knowing that this is the case I really don't think there is a better manager about who can continually build a team on the cheap, keeping us near the top. If that is the path we needed to take in order not to sell out or to go under then we should all be behind Wenger and the players until we are in that position to be able to get the best talent in.

My big issues starts here. We are told season in, season out that there is money to spend and we can go out and buy established stars. Yet we fail to see anything like that materialise. If there is money available to spend at a time when we really are in danger of dropping out of that top four and big signings could convince the remaining top players at the club that we will be a force again, why is it not done? I don't think as fans we are asking for crazy signings, just players who are proven and can strengthen our squad immediately sending out the intent of this club.

I hate the fact that we always seem to have a great team of our first choice 11 players, some real world class talent in there, but once the inevitable happens with injuries, our squad always seems to be made up of dross.

After losing Nasri and Fabregas (i wont even go into the shambles of their exits) closely followed but Wilsheres injury we did not go out and buy because Wilshere was close to a return (when have we heard that one before) Sure enough when the transfer window is closed his injury layoff is extended. We get to the winter transfer window...we are struggling for creativity and looking tired, but we don't sign anyone because Wilshere should be back soon. The day following the close of the window...Wilshere suffers setback and may miss rest of the season. What a shock. Didn't this happen with Fabregas, and V Persie and Walcott and Veamaelan.....and so on

I hate the fact that without any proven fullbacks, instead of changing the formation to say a 4-4-2 to have wingers helping the inexperienced fullbacks out, Mr Wenger sticks to the exact same formation. Didn't work out too well.

I hate the fact that he will continue with a formation but bring on players to play out of position so they can fit into that formation. Needing a goal, instead of bring on say a Bendtner and sticking him up top with V.Persie, he is sent on to the right wing...seriously? Arshavin, Eboue, Bendtner........none of them are world beaters, but give them half a chance Wenger. Instead it is the fans that end up turning on these players unfortunately. Wenger buys them and plays them out of position.

I hate the fact for years we have had to watch the likes of Senderos, Djourou, Sly, Squillachi, Fabiankski, Almunia........guard our goal. Bar this year I would go into every game EXPECTING a cock up at the back, which did tend to happen on a weekly basis. I just can not understand why Wenger, who inherited one of the greatest backlines in the history of English football, working with all of them for some time before phasing them out, has not recalled any of them in to coach our current squad on defending. I just can not understand that one.

I hate that fact that we build a team capable of just being acceptable. By this I mean if we get that 4th spot, regardless of all the glaring issues we have seen that season, we dont seem to do anything about it. Wenger and the board only tend to act when the damage has been done. Why not go out and add to the quality already there? We tend to constantly have a few world class players, whilst the others are developing. We win nothing, the greats leave and the developing player are ready to step up and become the stars themselves, whilst others develop again, we win nothing, the new stars now leave, and so on and so on.

It was so clear after last season that we needed to add to the club and hold onto Fab and Nasri. Them two were always going so we needed to add to the squad and replace those two. We replaced them with Benny and Arteta, which is a massive drop in quality imo. This break we clearly needed new legs in there. Once again nothing. Season after season he builds a squad to keep afloat.

I HATE THE FACT THAT THE SCUM ARE BETTER THAN US. That is the hardest to swallow.

If we do manage to turn this season around, win the FA Cup and finish fourth I fear we will repeat the whole process once again.

I love Arsenal. If there is money to spend then I blame Wenger for where we are now. There is still part of me that thinks he may actually have his hands tied and the money is not actually there for him. No One can be that stubborn can they?

p.s doe's anyone else think how strange it was to unleash Park for his d├ębut against United in front a massive Worldwide Asian audience? Anyone notice all the asian avertisng boards around the ground? Anyone sad not to be playing barnet this pre season and instead going to Africa? Club slowly being bought out by an American. Unfortunately we are heading the way of all those clubs we hate, but without the bucket loads of money. Oh wait we have loads of money actually....

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Re: Arsene Wenger

Post by danny.ceurvels on Fri Feb 03, 2012 7:49 am

Pat McMenimen wrote:Apparently Winterburn said on Football Today that he knows for a fact Arsenal don't have the money fans think they have.

My opinion is if the board were saying here Arsene here is 40mil to spend, and time after time he didn't, he wouldn't be here right now.


I don't think we have had that money for a long time. If they came out and said we didnt then I think the fans would be behind Wenger and the team completely.

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Re: Arsene Wenger

Post by Pat McMenimen on Fri Feb 03, 2012 8:30 am

If that is the case, then they obviously feel like there is more to be lost in admitting that the money isn't there.

I don't believe anyone there wants one ounce of anything other than what is best for the club.

Basically, it's mind boggling and extremely tiring to consider. I'm just going to continue waking up, turning the game on, squirming around on the couch for 90min, and then go on about my day.

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Re: Arsene Wenger

Post by Pat McMenimen on Fri Feb 03, 2012 8:49 am

(Hypothetically here) If Arsene/the board said 10 years from now that they thought we could slip into 12th place this season, but that this is ultimately a sacrifice and the right move, and that because of this sacrifice we would be in a significantly better position 5-10 years down the road than we would be had we blown 40mil this summer/jan. then I'd be OK with it.

I mean if Arsene is standing up to this abuse and just taking it like he has been, is making a sacrifice now that he truly believes will put the club in a much better position when he is 6ft under, well then... I don't know what to say. I'd like to live in a world with more people like that.

Of course, we don't know what the case is. And only time will tell.

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