The Ox

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Re: The Ox

Post by Gopi on Wed Mar 21, 2012 1:13 pm

Jonathan Prendergast wrote:Who 'needs' a big tournament? Can't think of any young player that it has done any good.

Michael Owen???

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Re: The Ox

Post by Justin Chew on Wed Mar 21, 2012 1:49 pm

Gopi wrote:
Jonathan Prendergast wrote:Who 'needs' a big tournament? Can't think of any young player that it has done any good.

Michael Owen???

And burnt out in the oven early in his career.

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Re: The Ox

Post by Michael Foster on Wed Mar 21, 2012 8:41 pm

Justin Chew wrote:
Gopi wrote:
Jonathan Prendergast wrote:Who 'needs' a big tournament? Can't think of any young player that it has done any good.

Michael Owen???

And burnt out in the oven early in his career.

Due to having injury after injury after injury...

I say he deserves to go as he has placed himself through his will and football to say to the world ' look I an ready...try me' I mean come on we all know he is leaps and bounds better than Theo was at this age...taking Theo was a bad idea as himself as a person did not look ready for it...as the ox looks as tho he was born to play at a higher level from this early stage...
Would you say the same about jack?
Or how about afobe? He is coming on well...
Let's take into consideration cesc...what's to way if you don't take these players at young ages when will they get the chance..

Look at the rut England seamed to have been stuck in with youngsters coming through and constantly choosing them same 11 game after game..




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Re: The Ox

Post by Christopher Flanagan on Wed Mar 21, 2012 10:38 pm

Jonathan Prendergast wrote:Who 'needs' a big tournament? Can't think of any young player that it has done any good.

Rooney? Maradona? Pele? There are literally hundreds of examples.

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Re: The Ox

Post by Michael Foster on Wed Mar 21, 2012 11:12 pm

Christopher Flanagan wrote:
Jonathan Prendergast wrote:Who 'needs' a big tournament? Can't think of any young player that it has done any good.

Rooney? Maradona? Pele? There are literally hundreds of examples.

Exactly....if it came to it this softly softly approach does not work...if a player is able to be classed as premiership status then a major tourney should be the next step and as soon as possible show us what HE is made of and not where we think his abilities are at within his game....

If you look at Theo he was taken as this retracted little lad that was quoted saying things like 'I was taken in by it all' and this was all through the tourney...you can understand it fully but there comes a point when you should be telling yourself 'ok it's great and all but I am here to do a job' this is where I believe the ox is at already you can see it in him and understand it by what a talks about in interviews
Holding him back I believe will dampen his abaility to mature and gain a more or let's say 'cesc' head on his shoulders where he is playing beyond his years....

To sum it up...

Theo. Was and still has this conservative play about him should not have gone
Ox. Far more advanced then Theo at the same age,is capable,we know he is capable,shows it and needs it.

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Re: The Ox

Post by Chris Chan on Thu Mar 22, 2012 7:52 am

For the hundreds of examples, there are a million more who made it at club level before they shone for their country. Wilshere showed his worth with us first before making it into the England set up. The Ox has barely played in top level football, let alone being ready for the step up to representing your country. Wenger has purposely protected the Ox, so why shouldn't England?

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Re: The Ox

Post by Jonathan Prendergast on Thu Mar 22, 2012 8:58 am

Christopher Flanagan wrote:
Jonathan Prendergast wrote:Who 'needs' a big tournament? Can't think of any young player that it has done any good.

Rooney? Maradona? Pele? There are literally hundreds of examples.

These players were already excellent. It's not as if they improved for or during the tournament. Did the tournaments improve these players? No, just put them more in the public eye.

Young players need a run of games around experienced players over months/years to develop and improve. Often, the best decisions by coaches around these players are not necessarily the best decision for winning a match, so it compromises thing.

A big tournament is all about winning each game, and no thought about player development (understandably of course).

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Re: The Ox

Post by Michael Foster on Thu Mar 22, 2012 9:35 am

How would a player not improve playing in a tournament??? Honstly....that's like saying they will not improve in a cup final....

Of course any player would....different pressures,dealing withing being on a huge stage,dealing with absolute class opponents....


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Re: The Ox

Post by Michael Foster on Thu Mar 22, 2012 9:39 am

Wilshire had a different run of playing to the ox...look what I am saying is we all know what the lad is capable of...we all know he is gonna be class...and we all know he could make a difference to...so to not take him would

a, be a dumb choice to not have a player of his ability.....not being funny but if they took and still take Theo then why not!?!?

b,what's the worse that could happen him not play!?

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Re: The Ox

Post by Chris Chan on Thu Mar 22, 2012 9:44 am

That's what they said about Theo. The Ox should prove himself at Arsenal before he gets taken to a major tournament. He is probably overhyped by everyone at the moment. Massive talent, but he only played a handful of games. Even Messi was still playing for the U23s in 2008. What is the rush to send the Ox to a major tournament, he has so much football ahead of him. rushing him only has a downside.

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Re: The Ox

Post by Michael Foster on Thu Mar 22, 2012 9:52 am

just don't see how it's a downside....see I am not trying to compare him to others for the sake of this debate just that in one way he has to be to give everybod an idea of what I am trying to say....

If nobody took a chance on these young players where would anybody be...
Ok there is hype about him but it's understandable because everybody can see he is gonna be bang on the mark....
So for that basis get him in get him learning how the big boys play and in the long run gain more playing years from an investment...

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Re: The Ox

Post by Chris Chan on Thu Mar 22, 2012 9:55 am

How does he learn? tournaments are a few weeks long and ALL about results. If you have a shit half you get hauled, no ifs or buts. You learn the important aspects of football at your club to gain consistency, where you have patience from fans and your manager. At international level there is none of that, if you dont win, you get slated from everyone. If you have a shit tournament you have to put up with 'you let your country down' at every away venue. One tournament will not make the Ox a superstar, and seeing as England are shit it can only damage him

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Re: The Ox

Post by Michael Foster on Thu Mar 22, 2012 9:59 am

You just answered your own question...if you have a shit half you get hauled off...

Don't have a shit half...how can you not learn from that!?!?!?

And you learn some serious lessons on the world stage too...

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Re: The Ox

Post by Michael Foster on Thu Mar 22, 2012 10:03 am

I can see him being wrapped up in cotton again like Theo was for ages...this ruins players BIG TIME....


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Re: The Ox

Post by Chris Chan on Thu Mar 22, 2012 10:05 am

Don't have a shit half?! he is a kid, he is going to have a shit half, game, run of games, that is part of being a young player. There is no forgiveness for the national team. The battering you take is all negative, very few decent players have 'learnt' from playing in the national side when unproven at club level.

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Re: The Ox

Post by Jonathan Prendergast on Thu Mar 22, 2012 10:11 am

Michael Foster wrote:I can see him being wrapped up in cotton again like Theo was for ages...this ruins players BIG TIME....


Wrapped in cotton wool....or....kept hungry and determined for more. 2 sides to this.

The worst thing for a young player is when a team goes through a bad patch, and the pressure starts falling on everyone, including young players.

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Re: The Ox

Post by Michael Foster on Thu Mar 22, 2012 10:16 am

That's like saying don't play the lottery because I won't win...how do we know he is gonna be bad..he is not at the moment nor will he somehow lose all his abilities because he has a bad game...and he would learn from his mistakes,did Owen yes did Rooney yes I could go on...they still played in a shit team...

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Re: The Ox

Post by Michael Foster on Thu Mar 22, 2012 10:16 am

Jonathan Prendergast wrote:
Michael Foster wrote:I can see him being wrapped up in cotton again like Theo was for ages...this ruins players BIG TIME....


Wrapped in cotton wool....or....kept hungry and determined for more. 2 sides to this.

The worst thing for a young player is when a team goes through a bad patch, and the pressure starts falling on everyone, including young players.

Every team has a bad patch....

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Re: The Ox

Post by Chris Chan on Thu Mar 22, 2012 10:21 am

I dont play the lottery because the odds are heavily stacked against my favour. It is not saying that he is going to be bad, but history tells you it is highly unlikely he will set the world alight. You have to be patient with kids, he will improve a lot faster with the pressure (relatively) off and in the comfort and support of his club rather than the disjointed, often dysfunctional, setup that is the England national team

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Re: The Ox

Post by Michael Foster on Thu Mar 22, 2012 10:23 am

That's fair enough...but one question who do England have that you would say cold do just a good a job as anybody else...give the boy a chance it's all I say..not play him every game every friendly and so on...just a chance to see him cut it...everybody was shocked when he did not get picked against Holland...says it all really

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Re: The Ox

Post by Chris Chan on Thu Mar 22, 2012 10:24 am

Owen and Rooney had already proven their talent for their clubs. Even the best footballer in the world was playing for the U23s in his breakout season and he was being labelled a phenom way before that. Did holding him back from one tournament hinder his progress? Three World player of the year awards later would say no. There is a much stronger case that not rushing youngsters, particularly unproven ones, is more beneficial for their careers.

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Re: The Ox

Post by Chris Chan on Thu Mar 22, 2012 10:26 am

Im not saying keep him out of the setup forever. Just think the Euros is one major tournament early. The Ox will be a starter for the national team, there is no question of that. I would actually rather take someone worse until The Ox has more minutes for Arsenal under his belt and he is going to get plenty next year

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Re: The Ox

Post by Michael Foster on Thu Mar 22, 2012 10:29 am

See it this way if it had been the world cup I would have been 50/50 on it but euros...

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Re: The Ox

Post by Justin Chew on Thu Mar 22, 2012 1:43 pm

I think the question is, did the ox really set the premiership alight? Not exactly. Just show heaps of potential and talent.

Risky getting him big headed as well. Just do your job when you're needed and chances will come knocking. I think if he keeps up and shine next season. He will be a full time England national by World cup

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Re: The Ox

Post by Mario on Thu Mar 22, 2012 11:34 pm

Wenger has got some things wrong in the last few years. No need to go over them, we all have an opinion on what.

But one thing that I fully trust Wenger on over almost any other manager in world football is the development of young players. Ox came into the side more regularly in January and started tearing things up almost immediately. But we've also seen him have a few average games (which is to be expected of course) and I think we might see Wenger saving him for home games when possible until the end of the season. We'll see. But he didn't start either game on Merseyside but started the home games in between vs Milan & Newcastle.

As for the Euros, I'm ok either way. I'd like to see him go because I think he would do better than certain players but if he doesn't that's fine with me too. He can go tour Nigeria and China fully rested. He will go to plenty of major tournaments in the future as a starter.


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Re: The Ox

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