England National Team

Lose first game in 2013.

Coach trials young players and debutants as it is a friendly. Makes 8 substitutions.

Crowd boos them off the pitch.

It might just be me, but I get a feeling from time to time most English people have an unrealistic expectation from the current national team. Just like the parents of children who in reality can hardly pass an exam but their parents expecting them to top the exam. And it's going to be followed by disappointment and frustration for both the parents and children. England should be looking into the future and set a realistic target for 2022 WC imo and enjoy what comes in between now and then.

I have never had overly high expectations for England in competitions. I will always support them but I rarely expect us to get past certain stages. Our talent pool isn't what it used to be, it is increasingly strained. Spain, Germany, even Italy, all have a far higher proportion of Spanish/German/Italian players in their league (not sure is quotas are involved for any of them, think La Liga may have some) and it is evidently a big advantage.

Mike York wrote:I have never had overly high expectations for England in competitions. I will always support them but I rarely expect us to get past certain stages. Our talent pool isn't what it used to be, it is increasingly strained. Spain, Germany, even Italy, all have a far higher proportion of Spanish/German/Italian players in their league (not sure is quotas are involved for any of them, think La Liga may have some) and it is evidently a big advantage.

I am not a big believer that the number of players in the national top league effects the talent pool.

For example, Jack Wilshire, Theo, Kieran, The Ox benefit from being coached by a great coach, and playing against top opposition every week.

There are enough spots in the Premier League. If an English player is good enough, they'll get a chance. Just look at the Neville brothers? Shit, but still got a game.

Subrat Koirala wrote:It might just be me, but I get a feeling from time to time most English people have an unrealistic expectation from the current national team. Just like the parents of children who in reality can hardly pass an exam but their parents expecting them to top the exam. And it's going to be followed by disappointment and frustration for both the parents and children. England should be looking into the future and set a realistic target for 2022 WC imo and enjoy what comes in between now and then.

We as the English have only ever willed our team on as expected any one from any nation or of club level would it does bring in some kind of high level of expectation mainly from the media they have a tendency to whip the public into a frenzied delirium that we have the best players on the planet them slate them to high hill when they actually do come up against the best and lose....


One thing that a general part of the masses forgets and never learns the lesson from is heaping pressure on the national squad..
Every tournament,friendly and finals are shoved in our faces like some grudging death match that England have to avenge some god knows how many year old previous result or the fact a team has never beaten us and won't expect anything less then the win streak to carry on......

Many times I have been out to bars or even heading to England matches and more often or not the only agro or heated debates I get into is with....England fans.......far to much expectation to win everything....having arguably the best domestic league in the world does not help.....



But anyway as for tonight agains Germany...I expect us to lose.....anything else is a bonus!


Good to see as a side note ozil is not playing....

Jonathan Prendergast wrote:

Mike York wrote:I have never had overly high expectations for England in competitions. I will always support them but I rarely expect us to get past certain stages. Our talent pool isn't what it used to be, it is increasingly strained. Spain, Germany, even Italy, all have a far higher proportion of Spanish/German/Italian players in their league (not sure is quotas are involved for any of them, think La Liga may have some) and it is evidently a big advantage.

I am not a big believer that the number of players in the national top league effects the talent pool.

For example, Jack Wilshire, Theo, Kieran, The Ox benefit from being coached by a great coach, and playing against top opposition every week.

There are enough spots in the Premier League. If an English player is good enough, they'll get a chance. Just look at the Neville brothers? Shit, but still got a game.

 
I don't think it is the be all and end all but I think it is a key reason England are behind other top nations. A wider selection of players to pick from and more English players getting chances to shine in the league would only be a good thing for the national side. The exceptional ones will always find a way through and play like you say but not all talent reaches it's potential so young and needs more time to shine and they don't get it much here so some younger, mediocre players may not get as many minutes gametime and do not get the chance to progress as much here other some other leagues give their youngsters. The first day of the Prmeier League the English players counted for approx 75% or more of those starting the games, one weekend this month it was 34.1% I remember reading. I find it hard to dispute that this doesn't hinder the national side. Yes it makes the league more exciting but if we are talking strictly in terms of helping the English national side, it isn't good. Even the English U21's barely get game time for their clubs, and if you compare that with Spains U21 side with Thiago, Muniain, Isco etc it's insane how much better developed their younger players are as they play more in their league.
 
http://www.theguardian.com/football/2013/aug/12/gary-neville-british-football-sky-sport - I remember reading this when it came out and I found it hard to argue it.

I think one problem with England is that they don't have top players in the top teams playing Champions League football against the Madrid's and the Bayern's of the world. You look at the national squad that went to Euro 2012 and you see many Tottenham players in there, or players who play for even lesser teams. It certainly isn't the only reason as the Lampard's and the Rooney's aren't exactly performing well either, but it is one thing to look at.

I would say both those issues are because the youth development system simply isn't working. England has a hang over from the old days of kick and rush long ball game. I imagine in the junior coaching ranks, there are still many of this old style of coaching.

Compared to Germany, France, Holland and Spain who are world leaders in teaching kids the right skills from early years.

Spain is full of South Americans and other latino nations. But because the young spanish players are good, they get their chance.

English clubs pay double for a decent English player. Darren Bent for 25m, Michael Carrick for 18m, Rooney for 28m, David Bentley for 16m, Francis Jeffers for 9m. EPL clubs are keen for English players, but the talent isn't coming through.

I don't think they are being held back in the reserves also. They can always transfer clubs, go on loan, go down to Championship to get experience.

I just can't agree with the logic that the number of overseas players holds back english players overall. Not as long as it is a free market and players could even head overseas to get their opportunity.

Best way to explain is an example. Shaun Wright Phillips had the potential to be better than he turned out. He foolishly signed for Chelsea, when their primary intention was to stop other clubs getting him. He saw infrequent game time and his development stagnated. There is a similar story for James Milner.

Do you blame this on having too many foreigners in the league? Or maybe it is the selfish, anti-competitive actions by particular clubs, only possible because money is no object.

Due to the actions of 2 stupid clubs, do you now limit the amount of foreign players in the league? Considering how much the foreign players have brought to the league over recent decades? Do you risk not having the next Ljunberg, Lauren or Pires in the league in the hope that they won't crowd out the next David Bentley?

I don't think so.

Like I said the overseas players in this league make the league very exciting, arguably the best in the world, but 'talking strictly in terms of helping the English national side' it doesn't help in my opinion. Spain does has foreign players too like you say but the percentage of Spanish players in La Liga, Italian players in Serie A, German players in Bundesliga etc are higher than English players in Premier League. I think it helps their national side and you don't, I respect your opinion and see where you're coming from but I don't think we'll agree on this lol

On a sidenote I also that English players are expensive here but I think that is the same in most leagues. For example this summer Real Madrid paid 32 million for Asier Illarramendi who hasn't even got a senior international cap yet. Bayern paid 32 million for Gotze. It happens everywhere. You may say Gotze is worth it but I actually think 28 million for Rooney was a bargain. You see other bargains too, they just don't get talked about as much, for instance a recent one off top of my head is 7 million for Cahill, who has done better than anyone expected since joining Chelsea.

Agree to disagree?

Yeah, England have been slightly deprived of quality players not playing all over the English league due to the arrival of foreign players, but I don't think the entire argument ends there. You could yet argue England should as a result produce more top quality players due to increased competition with foreign players to get into the English clubs.

It boils down to the grass root level education, not just in football but in most sports. You look at teams like Spain, Germany, Brazil who have kids who want to learn to play the game the beautiful way right from their early years. And you look at the English grass roots and you sense there isn't the same drive as compared to other big footballing nations to become technically superior players right from the early ages. England are still a very big footballing nation, mind, and hence a few minor tweaks re: the basics of the game might be all it takes for England to become a power house in world football again.

Mike York wrote:Like I said the overseas players in this league make the league very exciting, arguably the best in the world, but 'talking strictly in terms of helping the English national side' it doesn't help in my opinion. Spain does has foreign players too like you say but the percentage of Spanish players in La Liga, Italian players in Serie A, German players in Bundesliga etc are higher than English players in Premier League. I think it helps their national side and you don't, I respect your opinion and see where you're coming from but I don't think we'll agree on this lol

On a sidenote I also that English players are expensive here but I think that is the same in most leagues. For example this summer Real Madrid paid 32 million for Asier Illarramendi who hasn't even got a senior international cap yet. Bayern paid 32 million for Gotze. It happens everywhere. You may say Gotze is worth it but I actually think 28 million for Rooney was a bargain. You see other bargains too, they just don't get talked about as much, for instance a recent one off top of my head is 7 million for Cahill, who has done better than anyone expected since joining Chelsea.

Agree to disagree?

Nothing wrong with a bit of debate ! But it seems our opinions differ and are unlikely to change.

I agree that German and Spanish teams also pay a large premium for their countrymen. But I used it more as an example that English teams do have a pro-english policy in general, and are willing to promote English players and give them chances.

I think the 'too many foreigners' thing is a red herring, used to excuse England of their poor coaching and development programs.

I think the coaching and the lack of English players in the league are both reasons. I think it is only in the last few years we are seeing a slight change in that there are increasingly, still not a lot but more, technical English players players coming through now (Wenger has played a big part in this since his arrival to the league I believe too). Wilshere being a key example. And there are more active efforts to try change football mentality as grassroots level in this country.
 
I remember an interview within last couple years where Carlos Alberto actually said the reason England aren't improving is because the two reasons we're both discussing, lack of technical training at a young age and lack of playing time for English people in the league. They're both big reasons in my opinion.