Wenger - Yay or Nay?

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Post by Zaid Derweesh on Mon Feb 20, 2012 2:11 pm

Simple one this. I want to know if the majority of members here - generally level-headed and decent members - still support Arsene. Three years ago the answer would've been obvious: Wenger knows. Now?

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Post by Hisham El Mawan on Mon Feb 20, 2012 3:34 pm

The thing is, as long as the current board is in place, can we really expect a different manager to change things? And if the board is changed, why not keep Wenger around for another season and see what happens? In any case, it's absolutely stupid to put all the blame on Wenger. Everyone should be blamed; the players, the board, the staff, and Wenger.

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Post by Sami Rockfeller on Mon Feb 20, 2012 4:35 pm

Not all of our problems can be attributed to our activity(or lack of) in the transfer window or the transfer window. The consistency of our performances has gone down, we no longer play a stylish brand of football and more often than not we have begun the season on a high only to end up in a bundled heap come the end of season. These problems can be directly attributed as the manager.
Smaller teams no longer fear us, players are no longer motivated and throwing away big leads has become something of an Arsenal trademark. You can say we don't have world class players anymore, but the players we do have are more than capable of producing the goods and have shown us glimpses of what they are truly capable of and yet we fail to produce these kind of performances as a collective unit over a period of time. Take a look at United's squad, they are not exactly brimming with 50 mil signings and yet they sit at the helm while we struggle to make it to fourth.

I have been a staunch supporter of Arsene all these years and have always believed he could take us out of this slump but recent results don't show any kind of improvements over the Arsenal of the past few seasons.
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Post by Joey Schwab on Mon Feb 20, 2012 5:21 pm

I honestly don't know. It's so difficult to say without knowing what is really going on at the club. I would like nothing more than to see him lead us to glory once again and go out on a high, but I'm getting less and less sure that it's possible.
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Post by John Foxall on Mon Feb 20, 2012 7:09 pm

He's still had good moments over the last few seasons but overall the answer has to be no.

"Three years ago the answer would've been obvious: Wenger knows. Now?"

I don't even agree with this. The first time I had serious doubts about Wenger's ability to take us forward was in the summer of 2008. 3 DMs out the window, Hleb left and Adebayor not far behind.

Wenger still had an eye for the players we needed but we haven't been able to keep them. With high player turnover, we've just had no stability.

But that's only one of the problems we've had in recent years. He's been very successful overall at this club and as ever, we need to mention the fact that he will leave the club in far better shape than when he arrived. However, it's time to leave. The team is not improving under him and the repetitiveness of our failings is boring.

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Post by Chris Chan on Mon Feb 20, 2012 7:23 pm

the club has not progressed over the past couple of years. we are fairly stagnant at the moment, not as bad as some make out, but in terms of arsenal football club, it isnt good enough. i just don't see wenger as the man to get us out of this rut. as hard as it is to say, the club has to move on

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Post by Jonathan Prendergast on Mon Feb 20, 2012 7:42 pm

Chris Chan wrote:the club has not progressed over the past couple of years. we are fairly stagnant at the moment, not as bad as some make out, but in terms of arsenal football club, it isnt good enough. i just don't see wenger as the man to get us out of this rut. as hard as it is to say, the club has to move on

what is good enough?
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Post by John Foxall on Mon Feb 20, 2012 7:48 pm

Jonathan Prendergast wrote:
Chris Chan wrote:the club has not progressed over the past couple of years. we are fairly stagnant at the moment, not as bad as some make out, but in terms of arsenal football club, it isnt good enough. i just don't see wenger as the man to get us out of this rut. as hard as it is to say, the club has to move on

what is good enough?

Better than this?

If football clubs were scared of change, nothing would ever happen. Is Wenger really going to creep slowly towards 20 years in charge with the second half of his reign getting less and less convincing?

I understand the argument that the board is not helping, but I think that's avoiding the elephant in the room - the tactically-stale performances on the pitch, the inability of the group to mature and become more than the sum of its parts, the inability to produce consistently (especially when it counts most), and the inability to convince players that they want to commit themselves to Arsenal because they think they can win things here.

16 years is a long time. He's done a magnificent job overall. But all goods things come to an end. All the negative arguments about 'is there anyone could do any better?' are a bit silly. There are good young managers out there. We'd need to be careful about how we do it, but I do think we need a change.

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Post by Jonathan Prendergast on Mon Feb 20, 2012 10:18 pm

The inability for the team to mature? This is exactly the problem. He has had to rebuild many times. Because key players keep leaving as they reach maturity. Flamini, Fabregas, Nasri, even Anelka and Adebayor. Part of the problem of predominantly buying foreign players who have less afinity to Arsenal, and also not being able to compete wages-wise with oil rich clubs.

But it was a serious question. Getting to the champions league knock out stages? Challenging for the title? What is the level that you realistically want?
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Post by Mike York on Mon Feb 20, 2012 11:10 pm

This is a tough question as we don't know what is going on. It is nowhere near as simple as 'find a decent replacement and everything will be fine again'. I'm not even sure it is Wenger's fault, personally I think there is something bigger going on behind the scenes which is hampering the progress of the club. I feel a bit sorry for Wenger due to the usual arguments against him such as 'we always play the same way' and 'he never spends any money'. I cannot think of one other club (bar maybe the Manchester duo) in the league who would be 4th spot whilst having 7/8 defenders out the majority of the season (as well as a player as key as Wilshere), so we do have depth, and Wenger did actually spend a fair amount of money in the summer. I also hear a lot of people say Wenger never has a plan B yet just this last week against Milan we went 4-4-2 for a while. Against Sunderland it didn't look like we were our usual tactics second half either. They obviously didn't work but he does change up tactics now and then. Then again on the other hand I don't agree with, if true, how he doesn't prepare for specific opposition. And I also think the backroom staff (Primarac, Rice, medical team etc) should be changed to freshen things up. But Wenger seems reluctant to let people go in that sense.

I'm not sure Wenger will leave. He seems too stubborn to quit and I cannot see him being sacked. But if there was a change the board would have to be near sure that the effects would be beneficial (not an Scholari/AVB case etc) as Wenger leaving could have several huge negative knock-on effects as well. If Wenger left I could see some important players following him out too as it has been said numerous times, by past and current members of the squad, what a father figure he is and how much they like playing for him.

I really want to believe in Wenger but it is getting harder. Though I just don't think it is as simple as pointing a finger at him, there are definately other factors to consider and until we know them I wouldn't be too confident in getting rid of Wenger. Like it or not he is still one of the most respected and sought-after managers in world football, so he knows what he is doing.
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Post by Alex Hadjicharalampous on Mon Feb 20, 2012 11:50 pm

Mike York wrote:I really want to believe in Wenger but it is getting harder. Though I just don't think it is as simple as pointing a finger at him, there are definately other factors to consider and until we know them I wouldn't be too confident in getting rid of Wenger. Like it or not he is still one of the most respected and sought-after managers in world football, so he knows what he is doing.

I don't think you could say that anyone (in this thread at least) has simply pointed the finger and said he has to go, there are some very good arguments being made. And, yes, he is still one of the most respected and sought-after managers, but I'm starting to think that it's so much more to do with what he achieved in the past than anything he has done recently. Maybe he just simply isn't as good as he was at managing a top club anymore? I know that sounds very simplistic, but I don't see why it can't be true. Maybe he does know what he's doing, but is simply incapable of achieving it now?
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Post by Mike York on Tue Feb 21, 2012 12:14 am

Alex Hadjicharalampous wrote:
Mike York wrote:I really want to believe in Wenger but it is getting harder. Though I just don't think it is as simple as pointing a finger at him, there are definately other factors to consider and until we know them I wouldn't be too confident in getting rid of Wenger. Like it or not he is still one of the most respected and sought-after managers in world football, so he knows what he is doing.

I don't think you could say that anyone (in this thread at least) has simply pointed the finger and said he has to go, there are some very good arguments being made. And, yes, he is still one of the most respected and sought-after managers, but I'm starting to think that it's so much more to do with what he achieved in the past than anything he has done recently. Maybe he just simply isn't as good as he was at managing a top club anymore? I know that sounds very simplistic, but I don't see why it can't be true. Maybe he does know what he's doing, but is simply incapable of achieving it now?

I wasn't accusing anyone here of pointing the finger, it's more the media coming out with stuff. The amount of times I've read about Wenger being sacked/replaced the past few months in newspapers and online is crazy.

And yeah it definately can be true, he may just not be cut out for top level stuff now, matter of opinion. I just believe a lot of what is going wrong lies with the factors surrounding Wenger (injuries, staff, board, players etc) and, depending on how much say he has with those factors, it may not be all Wenger's fault. If it is other factors around him then Wenger may still be the best man for Arsenal and is doing a good job despite those factors. Yet if it comes out that everything with the board is hunky-dory, he has always had money to spend, the injuries can be stopped somehow but haven't been etc and it is all down to Wenger then he should probably leave. It's just tough to say which it is as the average fan doesn't know what is going on behind the scenes.
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Post by OsamaMahfooz on Tue Feb 21, 2012 12:22 am

Mike York wrote:And I also think the backroom staff (Primarac, Rice, medical team etc) should be changed to freshen things up. But Wenger seems reluctant to let people go in that sense.

This I agree with. The back room staff needs to be updated starting with Pat Rice. Not blaming the guy but i'd like to see someone else come in.

I may be an optimistic fool for saying this but I sincerely believe AW is still the man. I started watching football in 2007, and i have yet to see this club win something. It hurts every season and i have started to run out of excuses, but i genuinely believe we can still compete. A good summer when it comes to transfers is a must.
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Post by Marko Maksimović on Tue Feb 21, 2012 12:32 am

Yay, all day long, yay... The board needs to be refreshed. Nothing but personal interests there. Profits etc etc. I think Pat Rice really does a good job but he has admitted he doesn't like stress or pressure, he's retiring end of this year though. Hope Bould, Adams or Bergkamp comes in...
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Post by Michael Schatzky on Tue Feb 21, 2012 12:43 am

This is Wenger's squad , Wenger's tactics, and they are not good enough. Some things that have been beyond his control , namely Cesc and Nasri leaving. But choosing who and how to replace them with was his prerogative.
The culture at the club is wrong. 3 years ago .... 7 years ? With an almost entirely different squad from 4 years ago we display the same tendencies. That is not personnel, that is culture.
I think of the Spurs 4-4 comeback.
Wigan scoring 3 in the last 10 minutes 2 yrs ago,
same with Blackburn 1-2,
4-4 Newcastle,
2-3 WBA,
losing at home 2-3 Spurs in the last 5 minutes,
drawing Wigan 2-2 in the last 10 minutes.
Losing the CC final in the last 5 minutes.
What is "good enough"? Results we can be proud of ,win or lose.
If we no longer have the skill in the squad (did we ever really?) to play the system that Wenger wants to play, then we can have the fight and determination to grind out wins. We can play smarter. Adapt our tactics. Right now we do none of those things.
WE have a group of players who have been led to believe they are skilled enough to enact the "beautiful football" vision and they clearly are not .
That Wenger does not change this by changing tangible aspects of how the squad is trained, schooled, prepared and set out on gameday, is all on him.


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Post by Alex Hadjicharalampous on Tue Feb 21, 2012 12:50 am

Mike York wrote:
Alex Hadjicharalampous wrote:
Mike York wrote:I really want to believe in Wenger but it is getting harder. Though I just don't think it is as simple as pointing a finger at him, there are definately other factors to consider and until we know them I wouldn't be too confident in getting rid of Wenger. Like it or not he is still one of the most respected and sought-after managers in world football, so he knows what he is doing.

I don't think you could say that anyone (in this thread at least) has simply pointed the finger and said he has to go, there are some very good arguments being made. And, yes, he is still one of the most respected and sought-after managers, but I'm starting to think that it's so much more to do with what he achieved in the past than anything he has done recently. Maybe he just simply isn't as good as he was at managing a top club anymore? I know that sounds very simplistic, but I don't see why it can't be true. Maybe he does know what he's doing, but is simply incapable of achieving it now?

I wasn't accusing anyone here of pointing the finger, it's more the media coming out with stuff. The amount of times I've read about Wenger being sacked/replaced the past few months in newspapers and online is crazy.

And yeah it definately can be true, he may just not be cut out for top level stuff now, matter of opinion. I just believe a lot of what is going wrong lies with the factors surrounding Wenger (injuries, staff, board, players etc) and, depending on how much say he has with those factors, it may not be all Wenger's fault. If it is other factors around him then Wenger may still be the best man for Arsenal and is doing a good job despite those factors. Yet if it comes out that everything with the board is hunky-dory, he has always had money to spend, the injuries can be stopped somehow but haven't been etc and it is all down to Wenger then he should probably leave. It's just tough to say which it is as the average fan doesn't know what is going on behind the scenes.


Yeah, I know you weren't accusing anyone, was just saying. You're also right in that it's hard to say if it's his ability at fault or whether the factors surrounding him are affecting him negatively in achieving his goals. But even if he is being held back by the board, the coaching staff, finances etc, some performances have been abysmal considering the quality of players we've actually had out on the pitch. They aren't even isolated incidents, we've been getting performances like the one at Sunderland (and less frequently like the one at Milan) for years now.

The fact that the team keeps making the same mistakes, year after year, regardless of who is actually playing leads us to inevitably conclude that the manager is ultimately responsible for them occurring. You can only blame injuries and bad luck so much. Either something is very wrong or we must be the unluckiest team in the world.
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Post by Sami Rockfeller on Tue Feb 21, 2012 1:10 am

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Post by nick koupparis on Tue Feb 21, 2012 1:40 am

New board
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Post by jason.mandryk on Tue Feb 21, 2012 2:44 am

Name another manager who managed to take a team back to the heights having presided over a long period of decline...

He has kept asking us to judge him (insert next significant period in football calendar here) for the last 4 years. There is always another event on the horizon we are promised will make everything OK - the stadium debts being paid off, new sponsorship contracts, FFP, ad nauseum.

In the last 8 (!) years since we won the league, we have lost the financial clout to win it, we have lost the tactical advantage, we have lost the top-notch talent, we have lost the squad depth, we have lost the attitude/mentality. Some of this is out of Wenger's hands, but much of it can be laid at his doorstep.

Other teams are not standing still while we wait for some imaginary theoretical future that may never materialize.

So, for me, it's nay.

And if we really CAN get Guardiola, do everything possible to make it so and show Arsene the door. If Wenger as a boss, a personality and a mentor is a drawing card for attracting players, then Pep much much more so.
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Post by Liam Bermingham on Tue Feb 21, 2012 3:37 am

A big shake up is needed. The coaching team, training methods and approach to games needs freshening up and unfortunately I don't see that happening with Wenger at the helm.

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Post by Michael Foster on Tue Feb 21, 2012 3:43 am

I will keep this simple...

Is Wenger the man for the job...........yes
Are arsenals ambitions to win...........yes
Is the board behind Wenger..............yes

Now for the bad...

Player development,
we have seen in this year as of the last couple players going nowhere fast,walcott for one,diaby,we all know the rest so I will keep it short...
What I want to know is why we simply cannot get these players to learn a new trick or two?

Transfers,
Every season we suffer as we watch player we are linked to go elsewhere I don't begrudge this happening on Wenger he knows what we can afford to buy or wages,
What I want to know is why have we not signed at least 3 QUALITY players over the last few years when we have lost players over the years on very high wages?

The stadium
It don't see this as being a problem to why we have not signed players a self sustained loan was taken out with ways of paying it back calculated as 100% no chance it would run us on the path to ruin...Aparently we have less than 100m to pay off...
What I want to know is why this is used as an excuse at times that we cannot buy big?

Quality of players
As seen this few seasons past and all honesty we have ended up with some dogs Dick players and as a caliber of oppisition teams where they have a very good core of RELIABLE players,ones who seam to dig deep not when they seam to be arsed or bothered turning up but will run and run for the cause for 90 minutes,
What I want to know is what is our chief scout doing?

The board
Well this elusive bunch seam to be never around when you want answers,is it really all be left for Wenger to sort out and become the fall guy while they sit and count the pennies and tell us 'we are right behind Wenger' and 'his job is safe' now forgive me if I am wrong but if you had a job and somebody else whom you employ did everything for you,you could argue that you could be become slightly detached from what is really going on or that your happy to just sit and make sure your pennies are still coming in,
What I want to know is if they are right behind this club why are they not heeding the warning signs that we are slipping quite badly at the mo?

Money
Well this little beaut has to come into the this rant on its own part aswell,
We Aparently are the 4 or 5 richest club in the world with amazing profits and low costs and so on,we make just as much as we buy players for almost every season,
What I want to know is where the fuck is all this profit going?

I could sit here all day and go non stop on any topic on our club and no doubt I will but for now those are the main things I would think are a problem

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Post by ralph avedikian on Tue Feb 21, 2012 3:44 am

Blaming Wenger for big players leaving (cesc,nasri,flamini ....) is wrong.
For ANY club to retain his best players it should :

1- Win silverware
or
2-Pay high wages

Sinced we moved to the Emirates neither were/are possible. Well we could have won the Carling cup or even the Fa cup but that is not why big players will stay, I meant the PL or CL by 'silverware'.

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Post by Michael Foster on Tue Feb 21, 2012 4:25 am

ralph avedikian wrote:Blaming Wenger for big players leaving (cesc,nasri,flamini ....) is wrong.
For ANY club to retain his best players it should :

1- Win silverware
or
2-Pay high wages

Sinced we moved to the Emirates neither were/are possible. Well we could have won the Carling cup or even the Fa cup but that is not why big players will stay, I meant the PL or CL by 'silverware'.

You cannot blame a player for wanting to move on but you can blame a CLUB for not matching is so called ambitions which will cause players to leave...

1,we have been trying to
2,we pay the wages we can afford and not run ourselves and our black numberd bank book to red

Unfortunately a club cannot always match its fans ambitions of win,win,win...
And ultimately it can cost us more than a headache...

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Post by Vanig Bostanian on Tue Feb 21, 2012 5:04 am

John Foxall wrote:
Jonathan Prendergast wrote:
Chris Chan wrote:the club has not progressed over the past couple of years. we are fairly stagnant at the moment, not as bad as some make out, but in terms of arsenal football club, it isnt good enough. i just don't see wenger as the man to get us out of this rut. as hard as it is to say, the club has to move on

what is good enough?

Better than this?

If football clubs were scared of change, nothing would ever happen. Is Wenger really going to creep slowly towards 20 years in charge with the second half of his reign getting less and less convincing?

I understand the argument that the board is not helping, but I think that's avoiding the elephant in the room - the tactically-stale performances on the pitch, the inability of the group to mature and become more than the sum of its parts, the inability to produce consistently (especially when it counts most), and the inability to convince players that they want to commit themselves to Arsenal because they think they can win things here.

16 years is a long time. He's done a magnificent job overall. But all goods things come to an end. All the negative arguments about 'is there anyone could do any better?' are a bit silly. There are good young managers out there. We'd need to be careful about how we do it, but I do think we need a change.
Couldn't have said it better myself John.

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