What needs to be changed?

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Post by Vanig Bostanian on Fri Feb 17, 2012 3:24 am

I tried as much as possible to avoid posting yesterday after the defeat to avoid writing something reactionary or stupid. I was thinking about it calmly today and said, and let's face it, we are not a quality team anymore. Take van Persie out of the squad and we would be comparable to teams like Everton and Sunderland. So the question is, what needs to be changed? Since 2008 we've been saying we are two quality players away from a title winning squad. Are only two players enough now? Or is it more? Forgetting prices of players and our financial ability (or inability) to get top players, forgetting that players are mercenaries these days and wouldn't come unless we pay shit load of money, how many players do we need to let's say challenge City and United? 2? 4? 8?
Goalkeeper: Maybe getting someone like Al Habsi or Sorenson wouldn't be such a bad idea. Not for them to be number 1, but to give Szczesny some competition who hasn't been great these last few weeks.
Right back: despite how poorly Sagna played yesterday (people's reactions about him being poor in general is stupid), he still is one of the best RB's so I think we're OK there.
Center back: On paper we have a very nice balance of 3 center backs. An organizer, an aggressive Verminator, and a very classy Koscielny who looks good in every department. I don't think we should get new center backs but rather find a solution by strengthening our midfield.
Left back: can we rely on Gibbs? Is Santos's defensive weakness a major issue (let's be honest, we miss his attacking contributions and he was getting better defensively)? Again let me remind you that this is theoretical, I know selling Santos after less than a season is financially and practically stupid.
Midfield: I didn't take each midfield spot alone as I did with the defence because I believe the three spots are more interrelated. Is Song good enough? He hasn't been his beast self of 2010 in the past two seasons and especially this season. He is probably our highest assister in the team, but that's not his job. How can we fix this issue? Should we get someone who can do the combined job of attacking and defending in a better manner than Song or should we keep him and get a better creative midfielder so that we won't need Song to attack and stay more disciplined like he was when Cesc was here? I think the latter option is better. We all think that Rosicky up until last night was doing a good job, and we all (well most of us) think that Ramsey and Jack have the potential to form a great partnership, but let's be honest, we have failed to score more than 1 goal at home for fuck knows how long up until the Blackburn game, clearly that's an indication to both, lack of creativity and goals from midfield. I think getting someone of Cesc's quality (or at least someone close) is a necessity if we are not going to change our style of play. Get someone with experience and quality to take the creative burden, keep Song disciplined and let Arteta do whatever he's been doing so far and I think our midfield would look great. Meanwhile we can let Aaron, Jack, Frimmy, and Coquelin grow into the finest midfielders in the world without putting too much pressure on them at such young age.
Attack: It's quite obvious that we need a backup for van Persie. One who can score more goals than Chamakh and Park. An unfit, 34 year old Thierry who has been playing in a lower league for 2 years, scored more than both of them combined (of course, Thierry is a legend and those two are useless clowns). And on the flanks, I really like The Ox and he is one of the best things that have happened this season. Arshavin is close to being useless with a couple of exceptions here and there. Theo is too inconsistent. We can say that he is young and this is the first season in which he has stayed injury free, but I personally don't mind selling him and getting someone to replace him. I know he stretches other teams' defenses with his pace and all that. I know that he has given many assists to RvP, but thing is he can't be relied on, he so far, doesn't know how to cut in and take a shot (and whenever he does that the shot usually ends up in row Z), he can't possibly play as a striker like he wants to because he's physically to weak to be a striker in the EPL and more importantly, too wasteful when in front of goal with one on ones. Then we have Gervinho who is in his first season, has looked OK times, frustrated the shit out of us at other times. He certainly has quality, but would he be a starter for a team with title winning aspirations?
The thing is, the quality that some of our starters have should be the quality within our bench, and the quality (or lack of it) that some of our bench players have should never exist in a team like Arsenal. Again, in real world I am not saying that we should go all out and buy 8 players out of which 5 should be 30m plus superstars, I am a big admirer of Arsene Wenger and this sustainable financial model we are implementing. I am just trying to figure out how many players and where we need to be a seriously challenging team.

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Post by Alex Hadjicharalampous on Fri Feb 17, 2012 3:37 am

You left out the most important change we could make: Manager.

Not going to happen of course.. but maybe it should. The same problems remain regardless of who is playing for us, and that can only lead us to one reasonable, logical conclusion.

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Post by Sami Rockfeller on Fri Feb 17, 2012 3:38 am

Get rid of Walcott, too inconsistent to be a starter and has turned into a primma donna of sorts recently. Add to that his demand for a 100k a week contract, I say get rid of him now when there's still chance of making a profit out of it.
I think we're just one world class creative midfielder and a good back up striker away from being title challengers again. We've added a lot to our squad since Cesc left but we didn't quite replace him, so if we can find a player of his caliber I think we're pretty much set.
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Post by McCarthyofcourse!! on Fri Feb 17, 2012 3:43 am

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Post by Michael Foster on Fri Feb 17, 2012 9:22 am


Could any more one liners be more accurate than those......

Park signing makes me wonder big time....I think the only unfair one would be Yossi he still has pace and ability..and for his age is very very nimble on his toes...
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Post by Michael Foster on Fri Feb 17, 2012 9:23 am

I said this on another thread also..but it seams the better place for it

Drop them big time...I know I would get slated for this but my clean out would consist of Arshavin Rosicky Theo Diaby Chamakh Dj Scla-shity

And that's for starters.....see the thing is (and I have said this for the last 3 season's at least) Is we did not have to end up with players mentioned if we had spent just 20 odd million one one player per season of quality caliber imagine what we would have... Makes you think... 6 seasons later 6 quality players in all departments... Prob still would have cesc and na$ri at the club too... Ok wages would be higher but take into account how close to things we have been in those 6 seasons and what the extra caliber of player would bring us...my best guesstimate a trophy or two..you could say it's all if and buts.... But,..as 6 seasons ago when these youngsters knocking around the club

We were all saying what if these become world class...

Go with youth by all means...but to solely depend on it as we wave the last of the legends out of the door....I honstly hand on heart took a look at it and thought its a gamble...

But what if...
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Post by McCarthyofcourse!! on Fri Feb 17, 2012 11:16 am

''Drop them big time...I know I would get slated for this but my clean out would consist of Arshavin Rosicky Theo Diaby Chamakh Dj Scla-shity
''

Foster we park our cars in the same garage. Why would you get slated for that opinion? Just because they are Arsenal players doesnt mean they have a god given right to be branded as a quality player. Chamakh is far from the standard we have come to expect at Arsenal from a forward. Going from the likes of Smith, Wright, Henry, Wiltord, Reyes, Adebayor, Anelka to Chamakh is like driving a ferrari then trading in for a renault clio !! its an insult ! and as for Diaby I have never seen a more consistently injured player !! it makes Rosickys time out look like a weekend in Blackpool!! Then there is Squillaci who gives us all hope that one day maybe we could also play for Arsenal aswell... dont get me started !!

Its like our club has been touched in all wrong places by some of the most mediorcre- below average players in the game !! likes fly round shit !

Wenger come in your time is up!
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Post by Durrell on Fri Feb 17, 2012 1:07 pm

There is quite a lot of dead wood in the squad that is either perma-crocked, or so far from form they serve no purpose. Diaby, Denilson, Djourou, Chamakh, Squillaci, Almunia, Fabianski, Park, Vela. Gibbs is floating just above both.

The system we play is stupid, as it only works with a fit, on form RVP. Every other member of the squad gets shunted around to facilitate RVP at CF (Bendtner as a right winger last season?) in the same way the attacking midfielder in Diaby was shunted into being a DM to facilitate Fabregas.
It's all well and good when they are fit and on form, but the moment they aren't available the whole thing falls apart, and the replacements can't play in the same fashion in the system we have.
We have two formations we use, the 433/451/4231, and a 442 when we get really desperate and want to play a stunted 424
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Post by nick t on Fri Feb 17, 2012 1:15 pm

i think this 4-3-3 system just isn't working. we used to be a team where we could carve up a team through the middle (when we had cesc and henry), now we play from the flanks to the 18 and look for RVP. this has proven more times ineffective, simply because Walcott and Gervinho have been wasteful. we are completely predictable, and defenders know to stay on RVP. No midfielders are in the box, as to prevent a counter attack, and there isn't any creativity. it is simply not arsenal football. Another thing to point out is that Ramsey has had a lot of heat. I think it is unfair for Wenger, and fans, to expect a lot out of him. it is his first full season and he is still growing. i thoroughly think he will be an amazing midfielder, but needs his time, just like Nasri. but having him play now as a starter, he's trying to hard and making poor decisions.

there isn't any drive in these players either. consistently i hear from walcott (and now vermaelen): "we need to win for the fans." How about you players win because you want to win. show some freaking fight and spirit, that means more and fans will notice.

to fix this problem, I can't say there is a clear answer. everyone is saying "buy Hazard," but is that a viable option? Ramsey's inexperience is clearly showing, and Hazard would only add to that. while he will be great, we don't know how quickly he can adapt and if he will be effective for the 2012-2013 season. he doesn't feature a lot for Belgium, and how many games has he played against elite competition? is that worth risking 30 million? one thing is certain though, whatever changes happen, Wenger knows he has to make it happen in June. not july, not august. this team needs a makeover, and the longer he waits in the window, the more chance we start next year like we did this year.

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Post by Jonathan Prendergast on Fri Feb 17, 2012 6:53 pm

I think selling players does not solve anything. Surely buying excellent experienced players would be a better answer?

If Theo, Ramsey, Song and Gibbs were playing with players like Schweinsteiger, Klose and Alonso, they might be different players altogether.
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Post by Mike York on Fri Feb 17, 2012 10:59 pm

Jonathan Prendergast wrote:I think selling players does not solve anything. Surely buying excellent experienced players would be a better answer?

Agree. One thing that I believe has harmed the team this season, and in recent seasons in general, is how different the line-ups are. Selling/buying players isn't always the answer. The team cannot get settled. We rarely play the same back four and Per and Santos took time adapting. This season Ramsey has been shoved into the spotlight and Arteta is new. Gervinho has needed time to adapt etc Keeping the current core of the team and adding a couple experienced players in would be a lot more helpful than an overhaul.
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Post by Durrell on Fri Feb 17, 2012 11:16 pm

Jonathan Prendergast wrote:I think selling players does not solve anything. Surely buying excellent experienced players would be a better answer?

If Theo, Ramsey, Song and Gibbs were playing with players like Schweinsteiger, Klose and Alonso, they might be different players altogether.

We have to sell to buy as we have a full squad. And players like Diaby, who is on more than 50k a week, and has played 22 times in 2 seasons are a waste of a squad place.
Also, we realistically can't go out and buy a Schweinsteiger or an Alonso. It's unlikely we could finance those deals, and we are not a big enough club to get a top player to move from another big club to us.
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Post by Mario on Fri Feb 17, 2012 11:43 pm

The players that we need to come in won't happen under this current management. I include those in the boardroom.

But would it hurt to put some thought into defending? Especially, counter attacks? We are clueless at times and that is something that can be changed for the better without spending a ridiculous amount of money and 'becoming like Leeds'. All it takes is lots of hard work on the training ground.


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Post by Mario on Fri Feb 17, 2012 11:49 pm

By the way, what proof is there that if we give Wenger and the board another transfer window they will get things right?


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Post by Ozy Hreish on Sat Feb 18, 2012 12:06 am

Van Roy Bostanian wrote: Take van Persie out of the squad and we would be comparable to teams like Everton and Sunderland.

That's just a ridiculous statement.
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Post by janelle.noel on Sat Feb 18, 2012 1:33 am

Mike York wrote:
Jonathan Prendergast wrote:I think selling players does not solve anything. Surely buying excellent experienced players would be a better answer?

Agree. One thing that I believe has harmed the team this season, and in recent seasons in general, is how different the line-ups are. Selling/buying players isn't always the answer. The team cannot get settled. We rarely play the same back four and Per and Santos took time adapting. This season Ramsey has been shoved into the spotlight and Arteta is new. Gervinho has needed time to adapt etc Keeping the current core of the team and adding a couple experienced players in would be a lot more helpful than an overhaul.

Part of that problem has been waiting till the last minute to buy players. Of course they will then take longer i.e. into the season proper, to get settled

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Post by Michael Foster on Sat Feb 18, 2012 3:42 am

McCarthyofcourse!! wrote:''Drop them big time...I know I would get slated for this but my clean out would consist of Arshavin Rosicky Theo Diaby Chamakh Dj Scla-shity
''

Foster we park our cars in the same garage. Why would you get slated for that opinion? Just because they are Arsenal players doesnt mean they have a god given right to be branded as a quality player. Chamakh is far from the standard we have come to expect at Arsenal from a forward. Going from the likes of Smith, Wright, Henry, Wiltord, Reyes, Adebayor, Anelka to Chamakh is like driving a ferrari then trading in for a renault clio !! its an insult ! and as for Diaby I have never seen a more consistently injured player !! it makes Rosickys time out look like a weekend in Blackpool!! Then there is Squillaci who gives us all hope that one day maybe we could also play for Arsenal aswell... dont get me started !!

Its like our club has been touched in all wrong places by some of the most mediorcre- below average players in the game !! likes fly round shit !

Wenger come in your time is up!

Firstly good to see ya here Mccarthy....

Glad somebody else sees it a way that is obviously black and white....
These players we have here now are not worth the wages...full stop (and no I don't mean every player,just those stated)
One thing that really,really,really FUCKS ME OFF is the usual bullshit every window where Wenger comes out and says
'Well we have followed xxxxxxxx for some time now (usual a good two seasons) and it might be worth taking him on....
Well here is an idea Wenger FUCKING BUY HIM!!!! then you get dumped with another line of...
'Well we got him on a free or its a player we used to watch'
Oh so we get the aged and dodgy one or the obvious he is free trade for a reason = shit

If he brought these decent players it would push the ones we have...it's a no brainer and if they don't step up or perform then politely tell them to fuck off....don't stick with the older and injury prone ones doing nothing but collecting a happy day pay cheque

and just to add even if once like say rosicky they were a part of our hearts......
Like me Wenger needs to realize we all need to move on at some point...

So just if there is a slim but no chance Wenger was to ever read this...

Mr Wenger sell the shit buy the hard core grit.

(Oh and ps Dan I have a clio it's not all so shit lol)
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Post by Michael Foster on Sat Feb 18, 2012 3:44 am

Ok maybe it is.....
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Post by Jenks1981 on Sat Feb 18, 2012 3:44 am

I dont say this easily but maybe the time is right for our glorious manager to step upstairs and let someone else come in in the summer, but who...

...I can only think of one off the top of my head who has succeeded under similar circumstances and thats David Moyes.

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Post by Michael Foster on Sat Feb 18, 2012 3:49 am

Jenks1981 wrote:I dont say this easily but maybe the time is right for our glorious manager to step upstairs and let someone else come in in the summer, but who...

...I can only think of one off the top of my head who has succeeded under similar circumstances and thats David Moyes.

I don't think he needs to step upstairs just yet...and ya know I don't think he actually would
Rectify what is obvious give it two more seasons and then bag a new manager...or if something comes along before go for it...
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Post by Jonathan Prendergast on Sat Feb 18, 2012 3:57 am

Durrell wrote:
Jonathan Prendergast wrote:I think selling players does not solve anything. Surely buying excellent experienced players would be a better answer?

If Theo, Ramsey, Song and Gibbs were playing with players like Schweinsteiger, Klose and Alonso, they might be different players altogether.

We have to sell to buy as we have a full squad. And players like Diaby, who is on more than 50k a week, and has played 22 times in 2 seasons are a waste of a squad place.
Also, we realistically can't go out and buy a Schweinsteiger or an Alonso. It's unlikely we could finance those deals, and we are not a big enough club to get a top player to move from another big club to us.

Fair play regarding the squad number limits.

But the point I was making was not that we can buy Alonso or Schweinsteiger, but how we should be concentrating on who we should buy, and not who we should sell. Selling players won't make a difference.
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Post by Jenks1981 on Sat Feb 18, 2012 3:57 am

Michael Foster wrote:
Jenks1981 wrote:I dont say this easily but maybe the time is right for our glorious manager to step upstairs and let someone else come in in the summer, but who...

...I can only think of one off the top of my head who has succeeded under similar circumstances and thats David Moyes.

I don't think he needs to step upstairs just yet...and ya know I don't think he actually would
Rectify what is obvious give it two more seasons and then bag a new manager...or if something comes along before go for it...

But the things that really scare me is the total rigidity on our formation and style, for years its been the same and its simply not working, Wenger seems totally unwilling to change and that for me is more worrying that anything else.

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Post by Michael Foster on Sat Feb 18, 2012 4:02 am

Jenks1981 wrote:
Michael Foster wrote:
Jenks1981 wrote:I dont say this easily but maybe the time is right for our glorious manager to step upstairs and let someone else come in in the summer, but who...

...I can only think of one off the top of my head who has succeeded under similar circumstances and thats David Moyes.

I don't think he needs to step upstairs just yet...and ya know I don't think he actually would
Rectify what is obvious give it two more seasons and then bag a new manager...or if something comes along before go for it...

But the things that really scare me is the total rigidity on our formation and style, for years its been the same and its simply not working, Wenger seems totally unwilling to change and that for me is more worrying that anything else.

Your bang on with that jenks...I don't know why he sticks with this 4-3-3 all the time...we need a straight 4-4-2 or ya know what I would try 3-5-3 fucking pack out our mid.....
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Post by Jonathan Prendergast on Sat Feb 18, 2012 4:12 am

Formations are overated.

You play 3-5-3, and that just sees the wide midfielders compensate for fewer defenders by having to defend more to watch the wingers.

He changed to 4-3-3 to accomodate Fabregas as he started playing a more advanced, almost Bergkamp style role. The main difference is, that rather than 2 strikers, it is 1 striker and 1 attacking mid, and the wide players push further forward.

To fit with this, he bought wide forwards, like Arsharvin, Walcott and Gervinho, rather than wide midfielders like Pires and Ljunberg. If he changed this part of the formation, it would make many of his purchases null and void.
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Post by Michael Foster on Sat Feb 18, 2012 4:26 am

Jonathan Prendergast wrote:Formations are overated.

You play 3-5-3, and that just sees the wide midfielders compensate for fewer defenders by having to defend more to watch the wingers.

He changed to 4-3-3 to accomodate Fabregas as he started playing a more advanced, almost Bergkamp style role. The main difference is, that rather than 2 strikers, it is 1 striker and 1 attacking mid, and the wide players push further forward.

To fit with this, he bought wide forwards, like Arsharvin, Walcott and Gervinho, rather than wide midfielders like Pires and Ljunberg. If he changed this part of the formation, it would make many of his purchases null and void.

One of the reasons you don't build a team around one player...build the team to work as one...

Worst thing I ever herd when it was said by Wenger about changing the team to suit cesc...

Everybody knew that little fucking cunt would head home....kiss the badge,kiss my arse cesc
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